Sounds of SAND is a podcast from Science and Nonduality which contemplates and reveres the beauty, complexity, pain, and great mystery that weave the infinite cycles of existence.We explore beyond ultimate truths, binary thinking, and individual awakening while acknowledging humanity as a mere part of the intricate web of life. Episodes tap into SAND’s rich history and collaborative future by presenting talks, dialogs, interviews, readings, music, and recordings from SAND Conferences, events, and webinars weaving timeless wisdom and embodied experience.

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“We are not walking through the world; we are interwoven with it. In everything we do, we participate in complexity.”
–Neil Theise

Neil Theise is a professor of pathology at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine. Through his scientific research, he has been a pioneer of adult stem cell plasticity and the anatomy of the human interstitium. Dr. Theise’s studies in complexity theory have led to interdisciplinary collaborations in fields such as integrative medicine, consciousness studies, and science-religion dialogue.

Neil’s new book, which we discuss on the episode, is Notes on Complexity

The book is “An electrifying introduction to complexity theory, the science of how complex systems behave—from cells to human beings, ecosystems, the known universe, and beyond—that profoundly reframes our understanding and illuminates our interconnectedness.”

Mentioned in the episode:

The Source by James A. Michener –

Everything Only Looks Like a Thing with Neil Theise at Science and Nonduality:

Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick

Introduction to John Conway’s “Game of Life”:

Examples of emergent patterns in the “Game of Life”:

Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas R. Hofstadter:


00:00 – Introduction
02:15 – Neil’s Scientific and Spiritual Background
08:29 – Complexity and the Merging of Science and Spirituality
15:48 – Complex vs. Complicated
22:14 – Chaos, Fractals, and Emergence
29:48 – Biological Emergence
36:44 – Incompleteness Theorem, Quantum Physics, and Consciousness
47:02 – Complexity and Resiliency

Science and Nonduality is a community inspired by timeless wisdom, informed by cutting-edge science, and grounded in direct experience. We come together in an open-hearted exploration while celebrating our humanity.


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